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100501-reason-20-man-raid-attunement-is-a-bad-right-now
Content ---- ---- ---- ---- It's really not hard. It's long and tedious. The dungeon runs are hard, that's about it. | |} ---- ---- Basically what Snitzel is saying is that the road block to fill gaps in a raid of people leaving is huge and makes it a crippling grind for those already raiding to get new blood in as they have to back track all day long. That he can see it happening from now and that it will only get worse. To take out some of that back tracking grind to make it easier for guilds who want to raid, to be able to fill their roster without spending more time pre-raiding then raiding. | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- Well im just saying is that we have to "GO BACK and re-attune people over and over" .. make it puggable in dungeons with this attunement quest and i got no problems with it ... right now only the adventure part is puggable .. so ye | |} ---- I think you are looking at it the wrong way, and calling it back tracking puts a negative spin to something that can be positive to the guild overall. When you have to occasionally help someone out with attunement you just invited to the guild, you'll get a chance to play with them, evaluate them, and integrate them. | |} ---- ---- ---- 5 man endgame content. Having 9 friends is overrated. | |} ---- ---- been there done that in other games as many people probably have, most will agree (who am I kidding this is the internet) it is not good or fun design to make people continually go back into old content just so they can get back to where they were and continue progression. you start to feel like it is always two steps forward one step back. it's the reason catch up mechanics are put into MMO's. The point is Carbine had to know beforehand what would happen. It was designed to be a hard, soul sucking, life claiming, jump 50 hurdles just to get to the content you actually want to do experience. it is working as intended. sucks, but working as intended :) they planned to make a circa 2004 hardcore MMO, they probably succeeded. I am just not sure who they really thought was going to play it for any length of time in 2014 I feel like I should say something good about the game now so I don't sound like a hater, I do love the story, the humour, the zones, the characters and the classes. | |} ---- Me and Drusera is where its at. We should be able to solo the raids with her help. Yeah, i've decided to pug the vet dungeons and if it doesn't happen it doesn't happen. An experiement of sorts. | |} ---- I think your living in fairyland or something. Attuning new people for the guilds I know pretty much involves running swordmaiden themselves and switching the new guy in at the last second for silver because who wants to run that horrible piece of crap with anything less than a guaranteed silver. Especially when it's pretty much proven fact at this point being able to silver swordmaiden means jack all as far as ability to function in a raid is concerned. and every other step outside of the dungeons is just tedium for the sake of eating up time. Good attunement quests are like the solo missions you get to do between the group horrible grindy parts | |} ---- And thats the problem .. we dont wanna go BACK ... we just want to go forward ...thats why we have a problem with the attunement and people lacking at our server its kinda hard to do that right? | |} ---- ---- Well excuse me, for wanting to evaluate and see how people do in dungeons for myself. I'd much rather learn that someone invited to the guild is a bad player in the attunement phase, than in the middle of a raid.. PS: Wouldn't call it fairyland, I might just be more accepting of the current state of the game than others | |} ---- ---- ---- ^ not in a progression guild. | |} ---- I'm sorry to inform you but getting to know guildies and running with them is apparently too old-school for people. It's all online website applications and just jump in there and we'll see how much of your bragging actually pans out. My take... if a guild sees helping out new recruits as a chore, they have two problems: 1. They're not very team oriented 2. They really don't enjoy the game all that much This coming from someone who used to run with elitists in a game that was too hard-core to succeed (and other problems, but mainly way too hard to attract). Not only that but a lot of us rerolled a new life for more power and every month had to be dragged all over again through hell dungeons to get our rep up and flag. Our raid leader dragged us through the awful elite runs, I'm pretty sure he'd seen that stuff thousands of times and it never got any prettier taking a new person through there... But hey, that's how he found out if the new healer could heal well or not. That's how he found out if the new build a guildie was making was good enough for raids. If you don't like your guildies enough and the content enough to go do together... well that's just a shitty atmosphere. Maybe WildStar is hardcore in requiring you to actually be a team player. My GM never gets tired of going into tough content even though I rage that "why is that fool in my party, he will DIE, gawd damn it, he will DIE!". He's a GM, he knows how to make us want to put up with things until the new person learns their stuff. That's skill. Leading is a skill. Maybe even an art. It's late, waxing poetic now, dudes. Point is... I get that you're frustrated with the system, but maybe you as a guild should have a system in place where the expectation is to help others grow and play with them, not just find another body to fill the 20 list. (talking to people in the thread, not the person I'm replying to) | |} ---- When you say progression guild, you are refering to a guild that is Raiding inside GA yes? If so, then you are wrong, I am actually raiding at the moment :) | |} ---- *poaches Tanka* Didn't WoW get rid of attunements? Why do they have issue with poaching then? | |} ---- Sorry if u see me saying the attunement is bad ... that i dont like recruiting people you dont seem you have gotten far in this game yet lol. The thing is my friend that recruting people that are not attuned is kinda annoying when u wanna focus on Ohmna ....... and u cant since u have to spend 4-5 days attuning people and then when ur done the next few people leave and u have to repeat -.- it just get painful in the end and makes us quit the game. Right now me and the other officers and our guildmaster feel its not worth it almost anymore if they do open a transfer to Hazak we will move there but if they dont we probly end up quiting and most of us will go back to WoW for WoD .. some other people else were ... just saying attunement is a thing of the past and it was fine even the WoW attunements were more easy then this grindfest attunements | |} ---- I speak of the days back in Vanilla WoW and TBC. (i left before Lich King hit) Old Skool~! | |} ---- I'm actually more curious about - If your guild is progressing nicely, seeing you are on Ohmna, why are your raiders leaving? | |} ---- That's actually a pretty good question o.O If you've had the people to raid until Ohmna, why are people suddenly leaving, I mean them leaving at that point in time should have nothing to do with getting people attuned considering you've had enough people attuned to reach Ohmna. There must be some other underlying issue that is making your raiders leave. | |} ---- Why does it take you 4-5 days attuning people? 3/4 dungeons are not _that_ hard and pulling someone through SSM shouldn't be a huge issue with raid gear+experience. Did you ever ask people why they leave? If you are doing Ohmna, it can't be the progress. How many guilds on Hazak killed Ohmna? Eugenic and Codex? How many guilds are at 5/6 and recruiting? Looking at Wildstar progress only Eugenic and Codex R1+R2 killed Convergance. 6 different Phage Maw kills. Who are they transfering to and why? Leaving a 5/6 guild to join something below that, seems unreasonable. I really think there are other factors in play that causes player to leave your guild. | |} ---- ---- I think you've identified the real problem. People are quitting. If it was a stable time you'd lose maybe one person every few months due to boredom or whatever. So attunement at that rate should not feel like a chore or not worth it because you get to know that new person you're bringing in and aren't doing it every other week. I haven't raided in this game, but I have seen the attunement list and I just have to shrug. I'm sorry I'm used to raids that require pre-raids every single time, that require flagging every month, etc. The attunement process looks like a nice achievement list that should be bringing the raiders together and also learn to play together. Killing world bosses sounds like a perfect opportunity to socialize and play as the raid group. Doing the medal runs are a perfect opportunity to learn to play with eachother, not just your class. Sure the rep grind sounds painful, but you're not complaining about that. And I've never had a GM or raid leader across FOUR games ever complain about having to go teach newblets the ropes and the dungeons. I lost count how many times I've died and had to do boss fights over and over and over again ... YAY go me as a healer. My GMs and raid leaders kept me inspired and motivated to do so because those were my future partners in crime and they needed to learn how to farm, how to fight, how to get up to our level. But then again we didn't lose people every week... Dangers of a fresh new game in the first months. | |} ---- Cuz the game is in a bad state and many doesnt like its current state they either leave or reroll exile ........ since dominion is kinda underpopulated on EU | |} ---- Its cuz people refuse to play dominion on our server and they roll on Hazak ............ this is why and people are leaving duo to diff reasons like itemization and buggs | |} ---- Get on the same progression like us become a officer of a raiding guild on a small (factioned server) etc dominion then try recruit people .. its not that we have problem progressing its problem with getting people to RAID | |} ---- ---- ---- How do you recruit? I am on Hazak so the low population doesn't apply, but we are Exiles and the difference between Dominion and Exiles is noticable. We are getting too many applications for my taste and we limited our recruitment to attuned only (PvE, PvP other rules apply). We are still getting too many applications. But our PR is not too bad, we stream, we upload our kills to youtube, we have a professional looking homepage and a good recruitment process. It is just that we do a really good job at marketing (and progress speaks for itself). | |} ---- What a healthy approach to take.. I'm having trouble understanding how being dominion, no matter how small the population is on your server, can be a factor in people leaving, if you've had a raid crew able to do 5/6 GA | |} ---- Yes, its called being on the lesser played side and some people when feeling that way either: 1) reroll to the more popular side (exile) or 2) reroll to the most populated server since its population is a buffer against feeling lonely. | |} ---- ---- He previously stated a few different reasons for people to leave (e.g.: itemization) and it is not surprising that guilds on low pop realms are going to struggle whenever they have to replace raiding members. If you add a very obnoxious and grindy attunement to it that can only be completed in pre-formulated groups, guilds in this situation are going to have to deal with attuneless individuals where under healthy conditions you would simply skip on these applicants. | |} ---- ---- Carbine knew about so many things before release. They are not listening. They only listen to themselves. | |} ---- Is Carbine a publicly traded company? I wonder if they'd listen to shareholders? | |} ---- It's there to: - Make your team come together in organization and commitment, which is going to be needed in raids. - Provide an added tier of story-driven progression when you get to max-level. - Put additional value on the raid. If they didn't have attunement, there would be such an incredible uproar from players who are just walking into the raids expecting to pug them. | |} ---- Isn't is whole point that the pool seems to be shrinking? Sure in general the idea that more people will hit 50 over time is correct, but if you're losing attuned players faster than they are coming in then the overall pool will still get smaller. Which is exacerbated if his server is low population, and of course if the population does shrink a little then there will likely be more guild competition trying to snag up the few new 50s who get attuned. | |} ---- ...And when they died 10 -20 times someone would say; 'You know, Maybe we should've gotten better gear in those hard 5 mans first?' The only attument they need is something that has to do with lore, Why are you here killing boss 'x'? And the gating process for killing the end boss should be killing the second to the last boss, and the gate for killing the second to the last boss is killing the third from the last boss and so on.... | |} ---- Nope… the gear you will get through the attunement process is *more* than adequate, and don't forget that the combat in WildStar is designed such that gear plays a much smaller role than in WoW. Skill can overcome large stat deficit here, which players seem to be ignoring. The "gear chase" isn't the most important element of WildStar combat success… It's growing because we are waaaaayyy yearly in the game. I'm not sure how many attuned level 50s the guilds that rushed to cap and were raiding 3 weeks ago counted on their being available. But as time goes on, more players will be 50 and working on their attunement, making more raiders available. | |} ---- That's a pretty big assumption. And you know what happens when you assume. You're assuming that the game will continue to grow steadily over time in a relatively stable way and that this will be reflected in the OPs specific server. And even if we do assume it's growing it's pretty simple: Number of attuned = Number of new 50s attuned - Number of attuned who quit Now if that last number is higher than the second number, no matter how big that second number is the pool will shrink. Now if there's a low pop server, there might have been an initial early rush to 50 but few new toons rolling there. Which means any 50s who quit will be more sorely missed. | |} ---- Chua not want to nitpick, but is assuming as well.... | |} ---- ---- If people can't do dungeons, they are going to cause you an headache in raids. | |} ---- ---- I've always liked seeing you around the forums Olivar, you see the positives and focus on them without denying there are issues. The only friend I've managed to convince to pick up the game has been unable to patch for two weeks, not sure I can justify pushing it off on more friends whilst I'm having doubts =P I will add one more disclaimer in the interests of positivity: Even though I was leaning towards shrinking or neutral, that's based on this one experience on one side of single server. Even if he's completely right, it says nothing of the health of the game as a whole. | |} ---- Chua had guildies with problem too. Often flushing DNS or sometimes rely on proxy solve problem. Yes is issue, but can go around problem till permanent fix found. Chua pretty sure Carbine hired Chua squad for experiments on said problem. | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- Vanilla WoW had maybe 5 guilds per realm that were truly in the progression race. I don't think we should expect any more here, because like vanilla WoW, it takes quite an effort and commitment to be a successful 40-man team. But that's what Carbine always said it was - for the 1%. | |} ---- :D Go back to modern mmorpg then, wow maybe? This is clearly not mmorpg for you then. Developers clearly stated that raids in wildstar are for hardcore 1-5% player of population. So far no more than 5% people raid so I think everything working out as it should. And dont even try to throw argument about casuals paying the bills ok. I already bought 10 credds to sell for gold, I also bought few server and name changes. You see, hardcore players pays bills too. Move on. Raids in Wildstar are not end game for everyone but only for hardcore players. Grind and tediousness is part of every mmorpg. | |} ---- Computer games are stupid and add noting to the life other than time waste. Fact. Just stop. Please. For the love of Alah. | |} ---- he has a raid full of gaered skilled attuned raiders , when you get on his level you will also have people jump ship for greener pastures | |} ---- ---- there is nothing hardcore about liking to do pre raid chores. but keep that hubris http://www.twitch.tv/wildstar/c/4628420 @ 39:39 listen very very hard and hear carbine back away from the current attunement. the argument was won weeks ago. now go change your tune and save a bit of face like carbine tries to do. | |} ---- Woah woah, shots fired o.O I'm raiding already, granted we haven't progressed that far, but I doubt anyone from my guild would jump ship for greener pastures. This is based on that we aren't just a ragtag group of 20 people thrown into a pot, we actually bonded and created quite the strong foundation in our guild, because of the attunements. | |} ---- Exactly this. "Pre-raiding", as Tank called it, sucks ass. I don't even want to touch any adventure aside from WotW (Malgrave... *shudder*) and the dungeons are basically a "hope no one lags out during a boss fight or fails to dodge a single telegraph" ordeal. And you're going to do this crap HOW many times for new raiders who are trying to get attuned? I was originally pro-attunement, but more and more, it just feels like another boring grind that's less about doing anything epic or exciting and more like a todo list. Raiding in this game had better be the most fun, varied and interesting than any game before it in order for the grind to be worth it... | |} ---- Ha, wow! They basically admitted that the current attunement was way too long. They even said "Any future attunement will be eaiser." Well, if even Carbine thinks it's too much, yeah, I'd say the discussion is over... | |} ---- the urge to not laugh openly in your cute little naive face..... hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah. you're in one of those guilde the instantly disintegrate if the slight hurdle slaps you with a dramma bomb. | |} ---- ---- ---- Hate to break it to you, man, but yeah, we all think we're in "close knit guilds" until the guild hits a wall. That's when people start getting frustrated at the lack of progression and the temptation to leave arises. Good luck and I hope it doesn't happen to you, but it's a very, VERY common thing, especially with large raid groups. | |} ---- See, that would be nice. Same with world bosses: if you have the title for killing it, you should already have credit. | |} ---- ---- It begins to get your team in a "raid mode" and begin working with each other in large groups. That's what it adds. | |} ---- Most world bosses are just random shouts in the zone/circle/guild and people show up and beat it silly. It is just a zerg and requires little to no coordination. | |} ---- It doesn't matter; those are probably the first time your whole raid team has a chance to assemble in one place and actually fight something. There is value in that team building, especially by the time you are done with 10 bosses. | |} ---- One would assume that if you actually built a guild of 20 people and gotten silver through the dungeons for all you would be ready with the organization efforts. But even if not, why 10 world boss? why 10 of any type of world boss? Why not just the ones starting with Metal Maw prime - where you actually need more than 2 level 50s. Needing to kill 10 world boss proves nothing. Other than your ability to camp 10 world bosses. You don't need raids to take most of them. You don't even need coordination for them. Yes a good guild would seek the most challenge of the world bosses to test their organization - but they would have done this anyways - but probably not 10 times. | |} ---- Except that the randomness of world boss spawns ensures that your entire raid team will almost never be there. Those bosses will die in a flurry of zerg and poor framerate, period. Plus, if your raid team needed "practice" figuring out how to form a raid and pound mindlessly on something for 5 minutes with zero coordination, then I don't think you were going to be cut out for raiding anyway. Plus, go to 39:39 here: http://www.twitch.tv/wildstar/c/4628420 Even CARBINE is backing off of attunement, meaning YOU can stop defending it now... | |} ---- ---- ---- And this is the reason why the genre is suffering.... " Something that can be done solo" .... "be done solo".... "solo" | |} ----